Employee Health Plans–Debunking Myths

 Employee health insurance is a great benefit and valuable asset for attracting and retaining quality talent. At the same time, health plan costs represent the second or third-highest expense item in most organizations' budgets. This is clearly an area in which employers need to seize control by approaching health plan costs with the same type of analysis and planning as other major expenditures. However, many employers rely on outdated plans and no clear-cut strategy for their employee benefit plans. This has led to overpaying for healthcare. And, it has created the greatest of all healthcare misconceptions: that employers cannot do anything to control their health plan costs. This panel will examine common myths about health plan costs that are resulting in excess expenses for employers.

Transcription:

Paola Peralta (00:07):

Hello, my name is Paola Peralta. I'm Associate Editor over Employee Benefit News, and today's panel is Employee Health Plans, debunking Myths, and I'm joined today by my lovely panelists, Ed Ligonde from Benefits Brokerage, Nava Benefits, and Lisa Dallanbach from Digital Media Company, TheSkimm. And so obviously employee health plans are the cornerstone of any good benefits offering, but there are still so many obstacles and challenges keeping employees from having accessible resources and there's a lot of solutions that employers could be taking. And so to kick us off, what is the current landscape? What are some of the biggest challenges you guys are seeing in your respective industries?

Lisa Dallanbach (00:48):

Why don't I go ahead and start? So for those of you that don't know TheSkimm, TheSkimm is a digital media company that primarily targets millennial women. In fact, do I have any skimmers out there? Oh, a bunch of skimmers. We love loyal skimmers. Come see me afterwards. So really our mission is to give women, and we have a lot of male skimmers as well, but really our target audience is millennial women. And our mission is to be giving women the information that they need so that they can live their smartest lives. What we mean by that is that they have the information they need, they should have and the information they need to make their best decisions. Sometimes what happens there is that we become the trusted source of information for them. Sometimes the things your best friend might be telling you or nobody's talking about type of thing.

(01:38)

So I say all that because a lot of things that we are talking about and focusing about in our workplace is predominantly women, probably news shocking nobody. And so a lot of things that we're seeing in the industry and looking at overall are related to women. And so we see a lot of the issues out there around paid family leave and we see a lot of issues around childcare and a lot of issues around overall work-life balance around mental health and just health overall. And in fact, we just did a survey on the state of women and it was almost a full a hundred percent of our respondents said they're prioritizing their mental health and they're prioritizing sleep. Those were the top two things. So to me that says so much, and I'll talk a bit about how benefits, but especially healthcare really are factoring into all of those things. And you can't have a healthy life and you can't have a healthy mental state of mind and the life you want to lead if you do not have support in these areas. And so we're hoping as employers that we're able to offer our employee base that support that they're not getting in other places and certainly hope that our employee experience is not taking away from that as well. So I think those are the things that I'm broadly seeing for women overall as a real struggle for them.

Ed Ligonde (02:53):

Yeah, I think you mentioned some great points there too. So at Nava Benefits we're a tech enabled benefit advisory firm, hyper-focused on helping employers enhance the lives of their number one asset, which is arguably their employees. So what are we without? Our team and our employees, we're probably really tired of talking about the pandemic, but ultimately coming out of the pandemic, we've learned a lot of things, some silver lining, some things that ultimately were tough lessons along the way. And the one thing I'll say is I feel for employers because you went from offering certain levels of benefits and now you're having to offer everything under the sun to try to keep your employees happy as much as possible. So we empathize with you in that regard. But throughout that time I would say a couple of things that shine bright to me were one employers taking a second look at where every single dollar was going to from their employee benefit standpoint.

(03:49)

Obviously employee benefits are arguably your second and maybe third line item, biggest line item expense. So we need to see how in the world can we get more transparency into where those dollars are going and how can we pull some levers to make it a little bit more attractive for ongoing talent, but also our existing talent at the same time. But in addition to that I would say is lifestyle benefits too. You mentioned a lot of things about from mental health and things of that nature, they're not so insurance focused, but these are benefits, right? We are big believers that employee benefits aren't necessarily the insurance employee benefits is the benefit of being an employee and not to get to a whole game of semantics, but ultimately what can we do as benefit advisors and what can we do as employers to provide an ecosystem that allows and empowers your employees to effectively get the best access to care as much as possible, both for their personal and professional lives so that they can continue to bring their best selves to work each day. So I would say the rise in lifestyle benefits is pretty huge as far as complimenting any healthcare solutions you might already have in place.

Paola Peralta (04:59):

And for those of you who don't know, Ed and Lisa met last year at our very same benefits conference, so you guys might also meet someone and you guys will be on a panel next year.

Lisa Dallanbach (05:12):

And I will say we were really looking to be more creative and more thoughtful in the benefit solutions that we were providing. And I think back in the day or back in my day, without giving away too much information there, benefit benefits were sort of straightforward. It was like medical and there wasn't a lot of flexibility and there also wasn't the ability to get the data or I guess maybe we did have access to it, but we didn't use it to really understand to Ed's point, how people were using, how are our employees using the data? Is this the best benefit structure that we can have? And so Ed and I met at this conference last year and we started talking about that and how someone like Ed and Nava can really be a great partner. I think it's really important also to, I know I'm jumping ahead for you a little bit to really be honest in what you don't know and having good partners that can help you understand what you don't know and where you can be creative and other solutions you can bring in that you might not have ever thought of because you haven't seen it before.

(06:10)

That is something that we really looked at. I think another couple stats that came out of our state of women work was that close to 75% of the women out there feel like doctors are there only to be reactive versus proactive. And Ed and I were talking about this earlier, which really shouldn't. Doctors and healthcare be something in someone in a place you go that is proactively planning so you can be healthy, not just the place you go in a reactive state, oh my gosh, I am unhealthy. There's a whole another, I think it's close to 60% of the women that we surveyed that also said that they felt like when they went to doctors, and again this is a women's survey, that they were poo-pooed in their conditions and their symptoms were pushed aside and not taken seriously. And so you look at all this and you think of the different concierge services, which I'm going to ask Ed to talk to you, look at the different ways you can shape your benefits to try to help and support not only women who are feeling this, but employees overall, male or female in a way that you can be so much more creative than I feel like we used to be because you can really use the data and there's so many options out there.

Ed Ligonde (07:16):

Yeah. First of all, Thank you. In our role, you don't know what you don't know, and ultimately identifying that and just focusing on educating yourself on what else is out there is obviously something that I am a big believer in and making sure that you understand not only what else is out there from a global perspective, but also asking for feedback from your own employees too, whether it's survey based or having focus groups or whatever. It makes sense from an internal employer perspective for a long time. It's very much so as you mentioned, you've got a certain medical plan or a certain benefit program and it feels kind of off the shelf and this is what we have take it or leave it. And I think we're moving into this employee benefit regime now where you can really customize every single aspect of it to be as comprehensive or as narrow as possible to enhance the lives of your employees. Because ultimately, I think we were on a call earlier as well with an employee who said, I have the good plan. I know which plan I have is the good plan, but I said, well, that's so subjective. What is a good plan for someone like you?

Lisa Dallanbach (08:28):

You want everyone to make, I've got the good plan. That's the goal.

Ed Ligonde (08:31):

Exactly. And so someone might want a little bit of a different journey or things of that nature. So it really helps us identify which types of point solutions to put in place so that it's flexible enough to, I mean at the end of the day, it's going to be impossible to satisfy a hundred percent of your employees, but in taking a look at your demographic, as you mentioned, you've got high female content with a lot of them are planning families and things of that nature. So what can we do to put the programs in place that makes sense for them no matter what journey in that family planning journey they are, even if they are in that family planning journey. But to the other point you mentioned, what we're also seeing is, I mean, how long has it taken to book an appointment with a doctor? And sometimes what we're seeing is those appointments, you go in for a 10 o'clock appointment, you're there for 30, 45 minutes just waiting, and then it lasts six minutes and they move on to the next patient. So there's concierge levels of care where you want people to actually want to go to the doctor because that's how you're going to really bend the cost curve down year over year is by people actually wanting to seek the advice and seek the care. But we need to create the ecosystem to basically incentivize that along the way.

Lisa Dallanbach (09:45):

And I think that fits so nicely into our mission overall as a brand and certainly which we carry over to our employees is how can we allow you the opportunities to get the information you need to live your best? In this case, as we're talking healthiest life across all spectrums and even benefits in place, I'll use an example of we have a fertility benefit and what it really does at the end of the day or where we see our employees using it rather is because they're seeking information. And so it's heavily subsidized and it's a way they can go in and get information. So what does freezing my eggs look like? What if I have to go down an IVF path? What might that look like where they might not otherwise have the option to be seeking that information in a way that is supported through our health plans and what we're offering them?

Paola Peralta (10:33):

And you mentioned that obviously you guys connected out of this desire to create a different pathway or better pathways for your employees when it comes to benefits. And so what kind of does your benefit offering look like now? What did that journey look like? And both of you can chime in on both your experience as the employer changing it and then as the partner who kind of helped that happen. And so what is kind of the benefit offering as of recently at TheSkimm?

Lisa Dallanbach (10:56):

Yeah, I think if I zoom out, we think of benefits and wellbeing across TheSkimm is an umbrella that has four pillars to it and one is your financial wellbeing, one is your physical wellbeing, one is your mental wellbeing and one is your social wellbeing. And so we're always looking at how can we make sure that we are offering benefits to our broad population that support all four of those. The other thing that was really important for us was that going back to the data piece, ed and his team actually we did partner with them full transparency and really helped move us to a new structure so we're able to understand which are the benefits employees are using and not. And so we're not wasting dollars and we are going to be able to redeploy those dollars. It's not just a broad, I think your point off the shelf is sort of how it felt for us before that so that we are able to redeploy our dollars If our employees aren't using X, Y, and Z and our benefits, we can reshape the plans and move the dollars elsewhere to offer a broader range of offerings and benefits to support them in the places that they are using them.

(12:00)

So my guess is coming out of this year, we're probably going to see a lot of use around the mental health benefit area and how can I bolster that and move that up? So that's been, and there's certainly cost savings with that as well, where the structure we were in before, we did not have the ability to see any of the savings or realize anything. At the end of the day, if we were not utilizing the plans to the degree that we had bought into that, then that money was lost. And so again, we are really excited about the way that we've restructured it so that we are able to redeploy those dollars for our employees.

Ed Ligonde (12:35):

Absolutely. To be honest, it was a pretty fun journey in, I thought it was.

Lisa Dallanbach (12:42):

It's a little stressful. I'm not going to lie. It's good though. It's fun in the end.

Ed Ligonde (12:46):

Yeah, full transparency. When you're doing the things that feel right, a lot of times are difficult. And what I commend you and your team on and many employers who go through the same journey is just not taking the easy route and hitting the reset button and being afraid of renewal time and being afraid to see what else is out there that maybe takes a little bit more attention, but ultimately is a really good long-term approach from a transparency perspective, things of that nature. So to reiterate everything that Lisa just mentioned, yeah, you had no transparency into your programs and it made it increasingly difficult to actually have tangible data to educate your employees on. So you redesigned a program that gives you all the flexibility that you want, all the transparency that you need to be able to design the wellness solutions along the way.

(13:38)

It's a very inquisitive organization. There's lots of questions. Everyone's really, really, it's a good thing though, honestly because people questions, that means they're going to be active utilizers. So I really commend them along the way. However, before the restructuring of it all, we spent a lot of time, I'm a big Simon Sinek fan and I love his whole golden circle rule about starting with why. And that is essentially the pathway that we took in redesigning these instead of just saying, Hey, you've got this medical plan, here's one that's cheaper. It's walk me through the ideal employee experience and why you're even offering benefits in the first place. This shouldn't be an experience that you're just dreading every year and you're just like, oh God, what's my renewal increase this year? What can we do to look at what we're currently offering and actually listen to the data we're getting back from employees and just make a couple tweaks, make a couple revisions and truly enhance the care that employees have access to.

Lisa Dallanbach (14:36):

You actually then approach open enrollment excited about, so how many, raise your hands, how many exactly. Like, oh God, here it comes. None of you. Okay. My team and I are like, oh God, here it comes. I will say, and it's funny you mentioned, I was just thinking about the why. I think the why with employees, the one which is our brand, but really we tried to be so proactive about this was helping them understand why you are offering what you are, why you are offering what you are. And in our case, what I'm really excited about next year is I'm going to be able to share data with them about their usage and to why we built the plans the way that we did. And in this case this year when we were changing, helping them really understand the why we are doing this, the with them, right?

(15:21)

What's in it for them in the end? And part of it was cost savings for them. I mean, healthcare is really expensive. And so having plans that are better tailored to them that are more cost advantageous, and I wouldn't say you don't do the cost to be not offering them a good benefits package so they understand in totality as an organization, total benefits including your healthcare coverage is something that is really important to us and we are really thinking about it thoughtfully, which then goes back to the whole employee experience and then you become a brand and an employee experience that people will join and it becomes a retention tool as well. So I do think we haven't talked about that, but I do think that piece around how do you offer total benefits for your employees so that you become an attractive place of employment and you can retain them and that especially for women in the workforce is something really important.

Paola Peralta (16:18):

And so what were some of the biggest changes you made or what types of changes did you make and what was kind of the long-term goal when you guys were kind of in the middle of doing it?

Lisa Dallanbach (16:26):

So the biggest change that we made, or I guess most broadly speaking is we were originally on APEO. So we came off of that and we went to the level funded plans, and I'll let Ed speak more to that, but that was a big one for us in terms of literally how we are thinking about our healthcare, how we were structuring it. And I will say there's some people move off of PEO and they stay within the same family so to speak. So you could be on an ADP PEO and you can move to, I think workforce is what ADP has. And so for us it was entirely moving away. It was five systems we had to integrate. So it was complicated and in the end it has been great and I have no doubt we're going to see great benefits from them, but that was for us, I think the biggest fundamental change is we were doing that and then in that wanted to have healthcare plans again that we could design and we could control what we had out there offering to employees.

Ed Ligonde (17:18):

Taking control of the health plan is something that I think a lot of people even don't realize you can do. You really can take control of it. I mean it is sometimes seen as just another cost you're paying on a monthly basis, but you can design a program to where it is beneficial for the employee from an out-of-pocket perspective, but also benefits the employer too from a long-term cost and strategy perspective. One of the things that I appreciated about going through this journey with you is we were thinking about 2025, 2026 and how we can reinvest in these savings in the plans to just again, continue to listen to the feedback of employees and add more benefits. And when I say more benefits, not even just more medical or more dental, more insurance, we're talking about more lifestyle benefits to help res support the journey. You mentioned you have a fertility program, but to take that next level of wrapping that fertility solution with access to high quality providers in the fertility space, these aren't necessarily insurance based solutions, again, because benefits isn't always insurance based.

(18:24)

So that was a significant focus. The second aspect of it is just providing support and education along the way. Insurance benefits is always in the confusing endeavor for employees, especially if you have staff that's maybe coming out of college is the first job, they don't understand benefits in the first place. And so throwing information at them at open enrollment and expecting them to remember it for 12 months is next to impossible. What tends to happen as people are listening to it, they're an open enrollment, but they forget it until they need to use it and then they're freaking out. And it happened as recently as this week I believe someone just freaked out like, Hey, I forgot how to access X, Y, Z. And so we're big believers in obviously providing technology solutions, but also people at the same time or high level, high quality people to basically be in your pocket.

(19:14)

So anytime in a moment's notice you can have a response no matter if you're dealing with a prescription in particular issue that's urgent, maybe you need access to that high quality fertility provider that's within your network as well. And the last thing I wanted to quick touch on this particular point is when you're taking control of your health plan, a lot of times you've got PPO networks and is nationwide networks. And what the Skimm actually did is one of the options is a direct contract with providers. So we actually cut the network out as well. So we have direct contracting with these providers which allowed no copay, no deductibles, no copays, and extremely low out-of-pocket expense in a really low, it's almost free from an out of paycheck perspective. And by doing that, they're able to, it's mutually beneficial from the employee and the employer moving on to the next year as well.

Lisa Dallanbach (20:07):

And so this will be interesting to see. We took a gut assumption that we have a very young workforce and we assumed many of them are in their twenties, even low twenties, and many of them they're pretty healthy and they maybe get their physical once a year, maybe not. And so this option, we're hoping and we have a fair number of them that signed up for something that's really beneficial for them. They don't need a lot of healthcare right now. They're not worried about that. And so we have that option for them. And then we have the other option people that are in family planning and that stage of their life. So we tried to really look at employees and I encourage you if you can to do this. Where are they based on what your population looks like, where are they in their journey in life and what might they need and how can you structure your plans around that to support them?

(20:48)

I think that's where you really become that employee of choice that's really supporting them in their life and what they need. And when you can do that, you free up their mind to be able to do the job you want them to do whatever your industry or work is that you're asking them to do. And so that'll be interesting for Ed and I to look at, we will finally will have the actual data to see that support our hypothesis that we've got a big chunk that are young, so let's give them something that makes sense for them versus the rest of the group.

Ed Ligonde (21:13):

And one more thing I wanted to add is how people access that care in the first place. Because prior to that it was all you had to go in person for any particular type of solution. So you wrapped in, at the end of the day, accessing care means different things to different people. And we're dealing with a multi-generational workforce. You've got especially the younger population coming through and my kids even, they're glued to their devices to a degree. I try to keep them off it, but still it's a thing. So they're not used to a world without the technology. So having telemedicine but also expanding that telemedicine, they're working with the right partner so people aren't waiting hours upon end for things that are particular urgent situations, but also adding a virtual primary care component to it as well. So that was something that was new in this particular scenario as we restructured the benefits, because we did a lot of research and for younger generations, over 30% of the population don't have any relationship with any primary care physician at all. But the primary care provider is usually the start of your healthcare journey. So if we can at least give people the ability to establish a relationship from a virtual perspective, it's just going to at least start that journey, start that education that they should really be focusing on what they're doing today, creating that foundational impact within their own selves and their community so that later on in life they're not paying for pretty big bills because they waited so long to find the right provider, develop the relationship and so on and so forth.

Lisa Dallanbach (22:49):

I think it's also just want to, the telemedicine is such an interesting one to me because I'll go to both ends of the spectrum. So no joke, my mom who's 83, she's great. She calls that the McDonald's of medicine. However, what you really actually she doesn't realize is the telemedicine, you can get the appointments when you want to. Ed's point are like, you don't have to wait for three weeks, six months, whatever is you get the time. You can spend as much time as you want with them. And when I look at again, the younger portion of my population, that is how they want to engage. So you hear many places talk about meet them where they are, that is how they want to engage in that. And if I can get them in and start, if that's how they want to engage, great. Here's an amazing way to do it.

(23:31)

That is how you are used to engaging. I might get them on their healthcare journey that might not otherwise start and you might get them in a healthier place earlier in their lives, might not otherwise happen. Otherwise if you can't get that appointment and I don't want to go in person and I got to leave work to do it all that, they don't want to do that. So if I can offer them this really beautiful telemedical service, and actually one of my kids used it this week, she thought it was great, got everything she needed, she's happy as could be, and the reason she ended up with a sinus infection was because she wouldn't physically go to the doctor two weeks before. So at some point, so meeting them where they are and they don't really realize this actually could be in many cases a better benefit than even going in person because you could spend that time, you can get it right now, you can get it where you want it.

Ed Ligonde (24:18):

And you can incentivize it financially. I mean people are financially motivated, so when they're looking at an urgent care copay or depending on where they live, they're driving however long to even get there and it's triaged. So you get there and if you've got a line in front of you, you're sitting there waiting for however long so you can get that access to care within 10 minutes. And we structured it to be a $0 copay as well. And it's mutually beneficial to both.

Lisa Dallanbach (24:41):

Can do that when you own your own plans, right?

Ed Ligonde (24:43):

Yeah exactly.

Lisa Dallanbach (24:44):

Could do that. I will say one of the things, I don't know how many of you out there who have kids, especially small kids, when you're like, Hmm, looks like Johnny has pink eye, I got to get him in the car and everybody else in the car and I can't get an appointment so I have to call him from sick versus doing it through telemedicine is a game changer.

Ed Ligonde (25:01):

Absolutely.

Paola Peralta (25:02):

This concept of you don't know what you don't know. I mean, it's very poignant for me. I'm 26 and every time I go to the doctor, it's like the first time. But you've talked so much about how you really wanted to create these benefits for everyone in your workplace. You want everyone to kind of have an option. And so how did you go about communication and communicating these things and accepting feedback that can be very overwhelming as well, getting so much feedback from so many employees. And how did that kind of affect employee engagement?

Lisa Dallanbach (25:28):

That's an interesting question in that we didn't get a lot of feedback first because I think a lot of them, they don't know that they have options. They think it's in network, out network, 60 40 coverage, whatever it might be. So we didn't get a lot of feedback ahead of time. I think that's where Ed was very helpful in terms of thinking about based on your population, we don't have, I mean we have two people in their forties, so we're very young thinking about that. Again, where they are on their journey and what we can offer and how we can be smart about structuring the plans and then the communication around that for them. So we didn't have a lot of feedback ahead because I think they didn't know what they didn't know. So that actually was a nice place for us to come in and say, Hey, here's the options we're giving you and here's why based on what we see out there. And then letting them know that we're going to see more when we get that data.

Ed Ligonde (26:18):

Communication for me is a two-way street. Instead of just talking at employees, we're trying to have a conversation with them to educate them on what their new options are. And yeah, I think at the time employees were super overwhelmed because they may have gone from an ecosystem that you just had to read your benefits and try to figure it out on your own to we now have an where you can access someone live, you can access someone digitally to ask questions about your benefits and choices.

(26:49)

They had choices in how to access the education, and I think, again, I'm a big believer in getting feedback throughout the year as well. And so creating whether it's little focus groups or creating the ability for people to give us feedback because why are we doing this? We're doing this for them so that they can bring their best selves to work each day. So we need to hear from those employees and see what kind of trials and tribulations are they dealing with, what good things are happening so we can continue to promote those two and then find any thematic issues that might be going on so we can provide curated education along the way to prevent someone else from going through a certain situation that maybe someone else already did. Again, I'm just a massive passionate believer in education along the way, especially when you have a re designed healthcare solution plus all the point solution providers to create that whole experience. It can get confusing at times. But to your question though, Paula, I think because of all that, it is a very wide ranging way to give access to care to so many different people that you may have two employees who are exact same age and maybe they're both single and out of college, but they have two completely different healthcare journeys at the end of the day. So we can't just assume also that everything we put in place is going to be perfect for everybody.

Lisa Dallanbach (28:10):

So let's talk about the good, the guides. This is a tactic, but I do want to share it with you. It's been very successful for us. So after open enrollment, because we had many new things that we were many choices, right? It is a good thing, but confusing. We put together guides for and across the different wins so that after open enrollment we tried to anywhere to Ed's point when people were like, wait, what did I pick? How do I use it? They could go to the guide and they could say, you're in this plan, this is how you access it. This is what you do. So they had it there at their fingertips so that it almost took all that information down and made it easy. The other thing we put in place that I think it's given me a lot of comfort and I think it's going to be great for us, again, we're fairly new in this, is that there is a number that they can call if they need help getting coverage, if their doctors are confused, if they need help tracking down a claim, there is someone in AP Advocate that can take care of that for them.

(29:04)

Again, that becomes very overwhelming, like, oh my gosh, I got to call that person. I got to sit on hold. I got to go to work that piece. So trying to make sure that we had that support option in there I think was a very important part of our overall plan for them.

Ed Ligonde (29:18):

Just a really quick anecdote to that, TheSkimm specifically has a very honestly awesome and unique employee culture internally and from a branding perspective. And so I actually also think it's worth the extra effort to brand your carrier partners, your point solution provider's information into your own brand. And that's exactly what the Skim did because they paid attention to it. Whereas if we were just copying and pasting a bunch of flyers to employees, they're just like, oh, I'll read that later, and you usually never do. So the fact that it was branded internally and promoted from within was also helpful just from an engagement perspective.

Paola Peralta (29:55):

And to close us out. I know you mentioned that this, you're still pretty new to this, and so I'm curious as to what is the biggest thing you learned and kind of how that is going to move into building and continuing forward with your benefit offering and with the communication with employees and retention?

Lisa Dallanbach (30:10):

I think two things at the outset and planning the do it with a partner or someone who can really help you with the what you don't know. I think that's really important because there will be a lot. You don't know if you're going a whole different route or adding something different with your benefits. And I think secondly, the communication piece to Ed's point was we can always do more and we can always improve it, but I think the more you can proactively communicate, here's coming, here's why, here's how it makes sense, I think has been really important and I'm really looking forward to being able to finally understand what people want and have the ability to take that money and redeploy it. So things like we're looking at just to get outside of even the healthcare umbrella for a moment, we might redeploy that into pet insurance. So connectivity is part of wellbeing and dogs, pets, whether it's a lizard, catfish, dog, whatever it is, those are huge things in people's lives, and so the ability to provide some support there is a big one for me, but if I do it now or previously I had to go tap another budget to do that, I can probably do it within my own ecosystem of savings that I will realize as a small example.

Paola Peralta (31:17):

Well, Ed Lisa, Thank you so much.

Lisa Dallanbach (31:18):

Thank you.