Supporting BIPOC Mental Health: Strategies for Employers

Explore effective ways for employers to address the unique mental health challenges faced by BIPOC employees. We'll cover how to develop inclusive policies, foster a supportive work environment, and promote access to culturally competent resources. Learn about creating safe spaces, encouraging open dialogue, and implementing supportive practices that enhance mental well-being for all employees. Gain practical insights and strategies to build a more inclusive and supportive workplace.

Transcription:

 Deanna Cuadra (00:09):

All right, well good afternoon everyone, or almost afternoon everyone, and welcome to our panel supporting bipoc Mental Health Strategies for employers. We have four people, leaders who have joined us here today. They are going to break down how companies can build and promote not only inclusive wellness benefits, but a great company culture. Allow me to introduce you first too. Heerva Macwan, Human Resources Director of Hackman Capital Partners. We have Rob Mitchell, Benefits Consultant, IMA financial group. We also have Nicole Piggott, President of Synclusiv and Tyren Thompson, Total Rewards Manager of Zoom Video Communications. I don't want to take too much time from our actual experts here, so I'm going to go ahead and dive in. I want to first ask for our panel, whether speaking from a professional or personal standpoint, could you talk a little bit about what mental health challenges are specifically prominent in Bipoc communities, why it's so important for people leaders to focus on marginalized groups within their workforce in order to improve overall company wellness?

Nicole Piggott (01:13):

Well, maybe I can jump in. I'm not sure if, can you all hear me? I usually have a voice that carries, I don't really need a mic. Let me speak from both perspectives. So from the first perspective, one of the things that struck me as I started to move up the hierarchical chain in large multinationals was the further and further I moved up, the more and more I was by myself. I was the only one that looked like me, the only one who had the experiences that I had that was sitting at the table. I worked in the mining industry, I worked in the aeronautical engineering industry and I worked in the transportation industry where women were not in abundance and black women were even less in abundance in senior leadership positions. So when I was struggling with sometimes in security, sometimes with some of the challenges I was dealing with outside of the workplace, I really didn't have anyone I could go to.

(02:20):

And I also felt the burden of the responsibility for all of the people coming up after me. And so one of my colleagues actually was the person who broke the ice for me. And it wasn't a black person, it was someone who was on the spectrum and he was an SVP and he went out in front of everybody and talked about his mental health journey and it broke the ice and it gave me permission to be vulnerable and to be able to talk about some of the struggles that I was dealing with. And I know that based on employees coming up to me, that it also gave employees agency to be able to be vulnerable and share with me their needs and how we as employers could help them to meet their needs. And the second, and I'll be brief on this one was a situation where I had high absenteeism in one group in one of my locations.

(03:15):

And people, the response of leadership was to be punitive. Let's punish those people. Absenteeism is high, we punish absenteeism. And I took the approach of let's have a focus group and talk to people about what's keeping you from work. And it was at that point that we realized that there were things that were uniquely, that they were uniquely dealing with. And part of it had to do with, this was just after George Floyd, and I don't know if any of you understand if you are not from the black community, the sense of depression that actually and paralysis that struck people in the black community. But people were literally saying to me, I need a mental health day from being black. It's a burden that I'm finding very heavy to carry. And it was manifesting itself with people taking sick days from work. So we actually put in place a few mental health days that we allowed people to take as grace to be able to recover from the trauma that they were going through post George Floyd.

Tyren Thompson (04:21):

I think you bring up a good point, Nicole, and I'll just add that what we were saying with the Bipa community is that their experiences in the things that are happening in the external world or impacting them as they come into work and sometimes they don't feel safe to access the care that's available or they might not think that the care available is for them. So that's one of the challenges I've seen.

Robert Mitchell (04:47):

Yeah, I it's a little bit loud. I would just add that, I'll give you a couple of quick personal experiences and one is my wife, right? We're talking about Bipoc people of color. My wife is half Thai and her dad's wife, her stepmom passed away and the Thai culture and a lot of Southeast Asian cultures, it's very important for the kids to take care of their parents. I didn't know this. So during the pandemic, her dad had moved to Thailand and he decided to stay there. Well, every once in a while he does something silly or there's a financial issue and it makes her feel extremely guilty. She's crying, she's emotional, and that's something that deeply affects her. How is she going to show up to work the next day when she's having all of those feelings? If you don't have a culture that makes room to understand that there's a norm that everyone thinks is their own and a much larger part of your population may have a norm that's different from someone. And so what I really think is that the communication and creating this space to show employees that you understand and that there is a pathway, if you're going through a situation that others may not be aware of, that you're putting those pathways in place so that people in your organization can get the help they need, the understanding they need and just feel like they belong to your organization and that the organization is thinking about them.

Heerva Macwan (06:32):

Similarly, I think in the communities, Asian, Southeast Asian, where I'm from, there's a lot of shame in asking for help or thinking physically I'm fine but I don't feel right, I don't feel good. And getting help for that is just not supported. Growing up, if I felt something with my parents, suck it up, keep moving. And sometimes you can't. And I think in the workplace with any example, everybody needs somebody to talk to and somebody who's impartial, who will listen to you and just kind help you walk through things sometimes is important. So

Nicole Piggott (07:11):

Sorry, can I just build on what you just said because one of the things that people often don't understand is that I come from the Caribbean, I come from Jamaica. No one even understands the term mental health in Jamaica. No one wants to hear that you're not feeling well psychologically or capable of working psychologically. It's something that people don't even understand. So we have to understand that that's a hurdle that some of your employees have to overcome before they can even ask for help.

 Deanna Cuadra (07:45):

I didn't want to ask this. This is kind of where Mike I then want to ask because this is where a lot of your experience is vested in then. What is key to choosing and developing inclusive mental health benefits and policies? What do people leaders often miss?

Heerva Macwan (08:04):

Okay, I'll jump on that one. I had a lot to say. I think there's no one-stop solution that kind of helps employees or anybody. I had somebody tell me an company wanted to just get a mental health therapist for the whole company. That's not going to work. It's not going to work for even half the people or maybe one or two people. So I think we need programs that cater to everybody. So we implemented last year or early this year actually, January Spring Health, there's a lot of programs, but the one we implemented is Spring Health. And what's nice about it is an employee can kind of tell, it's like a survey they take, tell them what they're feeling, whether it's stress, anxiety, severe cases like suicidal thoughts, then they're sent to that specialist and that therapist so they can really get the customized help they're needing. There's no one solution that helps.

Robert Mitchell (09:01):

Yeah, I would totally agree with that. That was part of my points that there's this misconception that, and I think we all went through it where everyone's trying to rule out these different DEI programs and you're getting an all hands meeting and trying to have difficult conversations and you can't understand why no one's saying anything. That's more of the one size fits all approach. I really love the lifestyle spending accounts so that employees can get money from their employer to use for the benefits that are specific to them. Maybe you need marriage counseling, maybe you need transportation benefits, maybe you need extra money to help you with education to improve your career path. That's basically flexibility. And it's flexibility not only in your benefits but also your understanding of what your employees needs are.

Nicole Piggott (09:57):

Well, I can speak as a VP of HR, I spent 30 years as the head of HR for large organizations and at one point I asked my team, can you pull the data on who's using what? And we literally did a cross section where we actually looked at the analytics to say what programs are being underutilized and they're being underutilized by whom? And it was a really telling data slice because it caused us to realize that certain ethnic groups were not using certain services at all. And we then did focus groups with some of those groups to say, is it that you don't need these services? Is it that this is not what you need? Are we not providing what you need? And it was pretty revealing. What it actually revealed is I have tried and it's not helpful for me if I am dealing with an issue that is unique to my community and I need support, a therapist who has not walked a mile in my shoes does not understand my experiences is I can't connect with that therapist. And so we went out and we actually told our providers, we need you to provide multicultural therapists available to our employees to reflect the mosaic of employees we have in our workplace. And that's across the spectrum, sexual orientation, cultural, et cetera. So it really allowed our employees to feel more comfortable to use those services data is really revealing.

Tyren Thompson (11:33):

Yeah, I think that's so important. We've been a similar experience but I've got a background in communication and enablement and what I find is that sometimes you have to advertise these programs differently to different groups. The language and vocabulary folks in the bipoc community use around mental health. It's just different and the approach is different. So while you can make it available, you have to sort of show them that this is for you too. And we have resources that are for your community that focus on your community's needs as well as having providers that look like them and have similar experiences.

 Deanna Cuadra (12:13):

And I'm sure as all of and all people leaders know you can't do all of that alone. And I'm then curious what training or upskilling opportunities are then crucial for your leaders, whether they're just, well, not just managers, but whether they're managers all the way through Sweet c-suite, of course, what do they need in order to make sure that they're promoting that those benefits are getting utilized, that they're having a genuine impact on the workforce after all the work you guys have put in to making sure those benefits are available?

Robert Mitchell (12:47):

I think go ahead. I mean first they need to understand the benefits. Well, I mean I've seen tons of enrollment meetings over the years and it is so hard. I don't even like listening to my own enrollment meetings for my company. It's really tough to take in all of that information and it's not happening. I mean we know that because employees are still confused about benefits and they don't know what are available. That goes all the way up through leadership. So they really need to understand their benefits and understand what's available to them. One of the other ideas I've heard in some companies consider is if you have a layer of ambassadors, a diverse group of ambassadors amongst your workforce that also understands the benefits can be a liaison to your HR staff, your leadership, then you start to create, again, it's about those communications and pathways for your employees who weren't listening during the employee enrollment meetings, but they do know because you've been educating them about at least there is a group of ambassadors that it's diverse. You can find someone that you relate to, that person knows what all of the benefits are. You can go to them and have more of a personal conversation, not worrying about any repercussions of your leadership or your HR team and feel free to speak about what's going on and then you'll have that pathway to those benefits. You don't get that if your leadership doesn't support it. The leadership is what gives the HR team the ability to create those groups and then they have to be involved in those groups and show that they support it.

Tyren Thompson (14:35):

And I would agree with that and I invite our leadership to talk openly about how they use the programs and what it's helped them with. And I have our providers come out and provide specific education to HR and to management so that they understand when you're in your one-on-one and someone says something, maybe you say, Hey, we have 16 sessions that you can utilize. That's what I looked at.

Heerva Macwan (14:57):

Sometimes situations help with the leaders. Unfortunately in our workplace we had an employee who was not at the workplace, but in his house, he was murdered. So it was just so tragic and everybody was talking about what help could we have and the mental health that we had implemented was actually utilized greatly. There was an uptick and everybody was talking about it. So it's a very extreme example, but I think the constant communication, and I don't know if anybody in this room, one person was here in the earlier talk where marketing the key of seven, I think it was called, where seven times people hear about it. So it doesn't have to be, it could be emails, different ways as well. Obviously personally, my population is emails, so every month I send an email, so hopefully by the seventh month they know what we have and they'll get it. But text message sometimes when people are getting coffee, I come by and they're talking, of course nosy hr, but oh, you're stressed out. Did you know we have spring health? And sometimes that's why they see me and they walk the other way probably. But the point is just kind of driving it home.

Nicole Piggott (16:03):

So really I look at this and you mentioned communication and I think that's a key element of this. Different communications for different audiences. When I'm talking to senior leaders and the executive team, I need to sell them on why invest in these programs, why this is important for the organization and how it drives performance and productivity when you've got a healthy workforce. And when I can get them to understand the value proposition for the investment, they then can become ambassadors for the program. I don't need them to be experts about the elements of the program. I need them to be experts about the value of this service for their employees. Then what we also did is it was equipping our leaders with the ability to recognize science that someone needs the programs and being able to have those difficult and sometimes very sensitive conversations with employees, which we all know that leaders, the minute they see something like that, all they want to do is run in the opposite direction.

(17:06):

They wanted to make it go away. And so it was helping them to get over that fear of those conversations so that they could be conduits to supporting their employees and their mental health journey and partners really. And the third piece was that comment about seven times. We really were almost annoying. We would mail things home to spouses and families so that families could also speak, Hey, I got this pamphlet, what is this program that you have at work? So it was a multi-pronged approach. Get families engaged, get employees engaged. We had lunch and learns and all of those were helpful to getting employees to engage in the programs. And we saw upticks in every way.

Tyren Thompson (17:51):

And I'll just add that we lean on our ERGs. So when it's Black History month and Hispanic Heritage Month and pride month, our providers are doing events tailored to that population that lets them know we've got helpful information for you and we're here for you in your time of need it.

Robert Mitchell (18:08):

I just wanted to mention quickly too, it's also about leadership taking ownership of what their DEI position is. They're not just saying it's DEI, that means so many different things to different people. So that could have a negative connotation to some people. So explain what that means so that everyone understands that this inclusion is to include everyone in the workplace to make sure that your whole company can get on board with whatever your message is going to be, make it your own that's relevant for your company. Different companies have different ways to make their employees feel like they belong. I was talking to my brother Paul, he works on the longshoreman and the docks up in the Bay area about this issue. And he said that to a lot of guys that don't really want to talk about mental health, it's kind of gruff and tough, he said, but if someone gets injured and passes away on the job, I know that's a little bit morbid. The entire West coast shuts down. That's kind of their way of showing that every person is important in our organization. Now, that doesn't work for everybody, but each organization has their own identity and is able to show how you make your particular employees feel like they're important.

 Deanna Cuadra (19:38):

And to get kind of to our most broad question here, there's been a lot of talk of the responsibility of HR people teams to create safe spaces, to create psychologic safe environments, healthy work cultures, whatever way you want to coin the phrase. But in your guys' opinion, what does it actually take to create and curate a safe space? What does that actually look like in practice?

Nicole Piggott (20:05):

I really believe that culture is king. If you want to create a safe space, too many times we will see organizations that profess to have values that sound really good on paper and they look great on a website. But when you go into those organizations and have conversations with employees, it's quite the opposite feeling that employees have in that workplace. I really believe that if you want to create an organization where people feel safe to raise issues, to challenge decisions, to challenge leadership on the environment, the workplace, the tone comes from the top. When you see people who celebrate senior leaders, who celebrate those challenges, that celebrate employees who bring those issues forward, it creates an environment where others will feel that they can bring issues forward. And the best organizations I've ever worked for are the ones that got that stuff right where they benefited in ways that have nothing to do with the topic that we have here. You have production and performance outcomes that reflect environments where you have excellent risk management and excellent performance. So it's win-win all around.

Robert Mitchell (21:24):

Yeah, I think it's everything we've been talking about. You go to work and you ask yourself, do I feel like I belong here? I mean it's as simple as that. It's complicated because I was just saying it's different for every organization. So there's a lot of different ideas out there that you could pursue. Some of it being there's a company that everyone who starts at the organization has to go through crucial conversations, training. They invest in it so that they employees are spending over the course of the first couple, two or three months, they're spending several hours going through that training that comes from the top, the leadership's involved in that. You've come to this organization where you realize that not only do I have to respect everyone, everyone also needs to respect me as well. So that's one example. There's just many examples and you figure out which work best for your organization. But as you said, I mean it comes from the leadership at the top supporting it so that you can find your space.

Heerva Macwan (22:34):

Yeah, I agree. You probably can't sit in your CEO's office and talk about your stressful weekend, but you can find some leaders, managers, HR is always there. I think we're part-time therapists though we're not trained in it where you can talk about it and then we can lead you to the right resource because we're not also completely trained to help that. But definitely culture, it has to be in the culture. We agree.

Tyren Thompson (22:58):

I would just echo their comments. I think it's culture, I think it's leadership. And last I would add is authenticity, right? So when a tragedy happens, this shouldn't be our first time having these discussions. If it's embedded in our values, in the fabric of our organization, we talk about this all the time. We set expectations about how we're going to interact with each other and what we're not going to tolerate, and we live those. And that's how you create a safe space. Oftentimes I think employers wait until a safe space is needed to try to curate it and it comes off as an authentic,

Nicole Piggott (23:33):

Can I add to this point? Because you hit on something that's so crucial. You can't build this in the bad times.

(23:44):

You've got to have fostered that environment during the good times and then you can reap the rewards of those credits in your bank during the tough times. And I'm going to give you an example that I went through that's actually not tied to the benefits space, but it has implications there. I worked for an employer that they curated a culture of engagement. It had a 93% engagement rate in a company of 500,000. So it wasn't a small company. And having that kind of engagement rate is almost unheard of. And it was non-unionized and highly sought after unionized. And when we had a downturn in the economy, there was a lot of talk of layoffs and everyone was afraid for their job. And I'd go around talk to employees and they said, I have no fear. This company will take care of me. I know this company will take care of me. And that's a safe space. That's an environment where people feel that they can bring their issues forward. And it ended up being that all the leaders, all the managers, took a pay cut in order to save every job. But that was the type of culture that was created. Best belief, people feel safe. Yeah.

 Deanna Cuadra (24:59):

Alright. All right. And I want to give the audience an opportunity to ask our experts here some questions. If you guys have anything percolating in your mind right now, please feel free to ask.

Audience Member 1 (25:14):

Yes. What has the conversations been like with particular executives in your career paths? What have the conversations looked like within your careers with executives who are for-profit driven minded who don't see the RO, I see this as a burden to their organization. Sure. We've all overcome some form of that and I'd love to know how you experienced and overcame those situations.

Nicole Piggott (25:44):

So I actually founded my organization after I'd spent 30 years in that space where people, it was like a wave. There'd be a crisis me too movement. 2017, it's all about women. And it was really, let's be real. It was damage control, right? That's what it was. George Floyd, it's all about black people. And then again, it was damage control. The way that I have found that I've been able to move the needle has been really talking to CEOs about two things. The first thing is acknowledging exactly what you just said. I want you to admit to me that you just wish this whole thing would go away, that d and i and all of the things around they makes you so uncomfortable, you just wish it would go away. If you don't admit that to yourself, we can't get to the real stuff. And it comes back to authenticity.

(26:37):

The second thing I talk to them is, I think part of the reason that you're afraid of it is because you think it excludes you. It excludes people who look like you. It's actually pitting you against other groups. When I talked to them about, you mentioned it, well Rob inclusion is everybody. It doesn't mean excluding one group to the benefit of others. It's making sure everyone's at the table. That's all we're talking about. When I've started to have those conversations with CEOs, they start to say, take a breath and go, okay, well I can get behind that. It's about my entire organization. I said, yeah, we're not talking about one group to the detriment of another. We're talking about everybody.

Tyren Thompson (27:16):

And earlier you mentioned, and I think this is where you really see the ROI and can help someone to understand it, is that if your employees come to work and they're not fully focused and at ease in their personal lives, they're not going to do their best work for you. They're not going to represent you well to the customers. So that's something that usually can resonate with folks. You need folks to be mentally well, feeling secure in order to do their best work on behalf of the organization. So there's a direct line to the p and l.

Robert Mitchell (27:51):

I would mention too, you think about some CEOs, how hard they have to work. They've given up their marriages, their relationship with kids, I mean driven for that single goal of their company. So I can understand how anything that's not focused on that goal they're struggling with. And with these, and we were talking about it before this, even with HR groups who are working with their managers, I think one of the effective ways to get through is to figure out, okay, if this is your goal, if this is what you care about more than anything else, how can I align what I'm trying to do to show you that will help you achieve that goal? Whether it's statistics, whether it's examples that you can find within the workforce where you've shown how, hey, here's what we did. Here's was the result, here's how that helps you reach your business goals. For some people, that's the way to get through to them.

Heerva Macwan (29:01):

That's a great question. I think similarly to what Rob said too, where I think I kind of use what's happening in the news to my advantage when I'm like, something's happening. Hey, our employees are dealing with this and there's no resource to help them. That's one thing. And then I've come from a smaller company, I think from most of you, where I have a direct line with the executives and so telling them, Hey, another company our size is doing this, but we're not another organization's doing this and we're not. So it's kind of how I've been able to push it a little bit and being pushy in their face, but whatever works.

Nicole Piggott (29:34):

But I do want to build on what Rob said. Data is king. In those conversations, when I've been able to go to A CEO and say to them, do you believe that? Let's take safety, that you want everybody in your employee to go home to their families at night or not get injured at work. And of course every CEO is going to say, what? No, I just want some of them to go home. And the rest, frankly, really don't care about. No one's going to say that. They say yes to that. Then when I put the data in front of them and say, do you realize that a black person is most likely to die in your workplace, a Latinx person is more likely to die in your workplace than anyone else. So unless you're saying that those people don't count, then there needs to be some focus on why those people are dying at work. And right away that's a catalyst because you've hit their heart and you've also hit their data, their results. No one wants to be that person. So meet them where they are.

Tyren Thompson (30:35):

And I would add to that, now they're on notice and it's a legal risk as well.

Nicole Piggott (30:38):

Yeah, exactly.

 Deanna Cuadra (30:42):

Alright, any more questions? Going once, going twice. Oh, you do?

Audience Member 1 (30:53):

A follow up to that would be, are there specific KPIs that you know have a better chance of showing positive impact faster? And what KPIs do you focus on with those key executives that they know they're looking at? Is it quarterly basis, an annual basis? Hey, we put in this mental health strategy, look at the ROI from Q1 to Q2. What specific KPIs do you have for us that you think as HR professionals we can hone in on to make that conversational easier?

Tyren Thompson (31:24):

I would say we often lean on engagement. You worked at an organization where engagement was 93, but there's a lot of research, really detailed research that talks about how unengaged workforces perform much worse than their peers and competitors. So we can by question and by ethnic group, gender, age department, identify where there are gaps and really see the impact quarter to quarter a year over year. When we invest in these programs,

Nicole Piggott (31:58):

I actually created a dashboard. I created a dashboard that we brought to the executive table every quarter, and it was broken down by VP area so that they could see which VP create that competition amongst VPs about who's doing better than their peers. And in that dashboard, what we looked at is the cost of people being away from work. And we looked at the cost drivers and the fluctuation and it was a great improvement that we saw with those groups that were the most likely to be absent. And they tended to be from the BIPOC community and we saw a market improvement in their presence at work and we could tie it to dollars. And the minute we saw that and that healthy competition was created amongst the VPs, it became, oh, you beat me this quarter. No, that's not happening. So you almost lost use that sort of competition and the data.

Robert Mitchell (33:04):

Yeah, it makes sense. I would say it's interesting. There are so many articles out there and they're throwing stats at you like crazy. And at the bottom you see, oh, study was done by so-and-so, and it was 1200 people across the country. I mean, it just doesn't represent a real study in my belief across America. So it does make sense to get that type of data that you're talking about because it's so easy to throw around a few stats that if you really dig into it, they don't have that meat to back it up. Especially if you're talking about for A CEO, I mean, it makes sense. You need something that is substantial that they can really, that's tangible and they can say, okay, yes, I can see this very clearly. And based on that it makes sense to move forward.

 Deanna Cuadra (33:58):

Alright, I think we actually are just about time. Okay. So oh, we have one more question. Yeah, we can

Audience Member 2 (34:05):

Thank you all for participating in the panel awareness. Thank you all for participating in the panel. I can't help but think of how do you do this? And you've shared plenty of great ideas, but if this is a new concept to have this type of inclusion, where do you start?

Nicole Piggott (34:28):

I'm just going to take my journey. The first thing I started from is the problem helping my organization to understand this is the, so do your research, get your data slice, identify what the issues are, what are the trends showing in your organization because it has to come from personal. To Rob's point, when we talk about the studies, they don't believe them. Even though the data's there, the dissonance, they just don't believe them until they see it happening within their organizations. Get the data slice, put the data in front of them. This is what the research shows are the solutions. If we invest in these programs, they yield these dividends. Don't believe me, let's test it. Let's have a contract for two years, see what the results yield. They don't yield the results, we withdraw the program. I guarantee you they always yield the results. So you will be a superstar after you've But start with the data.

Robert Mitchell (35:36):

Yeah, the data and a conversation. I've been to too many meetings where people are just afraid to talk about the issue. So if no one's talking about it, you can't make progress. People have to be able to ask the hard questions, the pushback on DEI and if you don't have a response right, then you've got to go do the work and get a response. So it's both sides. But how do you figure out, I guess it's you have that data, but then starting to build avenues of communication within your workforce. So they can be smaller groups. It doesn't have to be these groups that, oh, here's the black group, here's the Asian group. Whatever group you feel comfortable in, your leadership is going to the different groups. They're asking questions within that group to help the conversation. And all of a sudden you start to have an open dialogue. And to me that's the most important part to try to figure out, okay, well now we have all this information, what can we do with it for our organization? If no one's talking, you don't have any information.

Heerva Macwan (36:47):

Yeah, the data is important. I think I started at an organization just checking out what benefit plans we had. So we had an EAP with only three sessions, who is, first of all, no offense utilizing an EAP, he works for an EAP, that's, so we updated it to five also. Who's going to use that? So then the next year we're like, what else can we implement that could help people just overall, not just everybody. And so the new plan we have shout out to our broker, it has customized to anybody from the executives to line workers, anybody. So just looking at that

Tyren Thompson (37:27):

Here, I'm glad you brought up the broker. I always go to them and they can bring the data and they can specifically point to which of our competitors and the leaders I work with are always extremely motivated by those sorts of things because they don't want to be the outlier. So we can say, this organization does this, this organization does that, and we do not. And that's usually very motivational.

 Deanna Cuadra (37:54):

Alright, well that's all the time we have, but I want to thank our wonderful panel here for sharing basically everything. You guys kind of covered all the bases, but yeah, thank you guys. And I think lunch will be soon. Hold on a little longer. All right. Thank you. Thank you.

Robert Mitchell (38:13):

Thanks for having us.